Episode 15 - A Conversation with Future Dr. Shelika: Part 2

This episode features the first guest ever on Broke PhD Podcast – Future Dr. Shelika Joshi! On this episode, Future Dr. Shelika shares about her career and dissertation research focus on refugee and immigrant mental health. Additionally, she provides an understanding of the difference between the terms refugee and immigrant, and she shares some of the personal connections that motivated her to strive towards working with and further supporting this population.

To connect with Future Dr. Shelika Joshi, please feel free to follow her on Instagram or reach out to her via email:

Instagram: @phdwithshelika

Email: shelikajoshi@gmail.com

Please, also check out the Broke PhD Podcast Shop: brokephdpodcast.shop

Listen to full episode :

Here is a transcription of Episode 16:

0:17: Hello and welcome to the Broke PhD Podcast, I'm your host, Dr. G!

0:22: This episode is part two of a three-part segment, showcasing the conversation I had with Future Doctor Shelika. If you have not done so already, please go check out episode 14, which shares part one of the conversation I had with future Doctor Shelika. And also be sure to check out episode 16, which will showcase part three of the conversation. On this episode and in this part of our conversation, Future Doctor Shelika shares about her career and dissertation research focus on refugee and immigrant mental health. Additionally, she provides an understanding of the difference between the terms refugee and immigrant, and she shares some of the personal connections that motivated her to strive towards working with and further supporting this population.

1:07: [Future Dr. Shelika] So, yeah, and I know like other people who've done like some people that have done doctorate degrees in psychology, I don't know many, but the ones that I do know, it's like pretty intensive and most of them are professors. Like I, I think they have taken some postdocs, but most of them are professors too. I don't mind being a professor part time, but, apart from that, I was like, I feel like health psychology is a really big thing, kind of different from counseling psychology, but with the clinical base of it really talking about like the healthcare system and how we can help people with their health. Because not every healthcare system is perfect, right? Same with like immigrants, refugees and just anybody accessing the healthcare system. Really looking at like what we can do for the longevity of our health, of course, not just physical but mental, psychological, all the different aspects that we can help each other, help ourselves. And yeah, I think even the refugee immigrant populations kind of underrepresented. I mean, they've done a lot of research, especially with Syrian refugees that I've seen a couple years ago that first wave come in. And I'm sure there's so many more projects out there in Canada and stuff that that are doing different things with refugee immigrants. And lots of them come here for a better life, right? So, they work really hard like I, I saw my parents and other immigrant parents, like, and refugee families work really, really hard to get to the position that they are in and I think that's why my generation, I guess it's second generation, you could say we, we probably sometimes work even harder. That's just my mentality. It's like you see your parents work really hard, then you work really hard because they made it easier for you so then you work double, right? You know, they came here like shifting their whole life over here not knowing the language. And trying to make ends meet. But then raise your children in a completely different country with a completely different language, right? It's really different. And it's really common here in Canada. We have a lot of families that like, Canada is like the home of people from different places around the world. So yeah, it's, I think it's one of the things that like, you know, it's underrepresented and we see a lot of like different, like intergenerational trauma, different things like that in different populations while I was working with them. So I've always been intrigued by that and I've worked with youth, I've worked in domestic violence and I've always had people from different like ethnic backgrounds and working with them was just, it's so great to work with them. Not even just learn about, you know what they're going through, but learn about their culture and their religion and their customs and stuff. I remember once I was helping a client, it was a family dealing with some financial issues. And I put my hand out to shake my hand, this is before COVID, And he's like, I'm sorry, I don't shake women's hands, right? Just out of respect. And I was like, ohh, my gosh, I should have known this, right?

4:08: [Dr. G] It's hard, but at least you recognized it. I think that's important too, is that some people, when they're working with certain populations, they're just like, oh, well, this is how I do it, so it's the only like, way. At least you're, like, privy to like, ohh, wait like they might have cultural nuances that I'm not aware of. Ohh, I should make sure in the future, you know, from this experience, that I start to have that awareness of those cultural nuances so that I don't, you know, make that not mistake, but like don't do that again if I work with anybody from that culture. So.

4:39: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, that's why I just like in general, like I tried to unless they shake their hand, like put their hand out then. I will. But it yeah, it it depends, like I I just, obviously I was just doing it as like, yo, hey, how are you? But you know, I totally understand. I was like, ohh, I'm so sorry. Like I, you know, and he's like, no, no, no, like that's totally OK. I understand. I just yeah, you know, I have my boundaries and it’s my culture, I was like, no, no, no, you don't have to explain. You just say that that's my boundary, and that's fine. So he was kind of surprised when I said that because he was like some people were saying like, ohh, you don't shake hands here, and you don't shake hands from where your from.

5:17: [Dr. G] And that's not cool, like.

5:19: [Future Doctor Shelika] I was like, well, you know, he's like in my culture, we respect women to the point we just don't touch them in any aspect. Like even a handshake, even though that's friendly here, we don't do that back in my country and I respect that. So, yeah. And then like, you know, everyone has, like you said, their different nuances. So like learning about that, obviously I don't know everything about culture, but the thing is, you know, trying to be approaching things in a more neutral standpoint. And another thing is I, because English is my dominant language and I do speak other languages, I speak English really fast sometimes. And I realize with immigrant and refugee families, I just had to scale it back a little bit because I was speaking very fast if they were scared to tell me that, ohh, Shelika, you speak really fast. I remember one family was like, I know you described this paper, like it was a paper to fill out, but I'm not understanding because you were speaking fast. And then I realized they're all too scared to ask. They're like, yeah, we were too scared. And I was like, ohh, no, no, no. Just always tell me if I'm speaking fast or what does that mean? Or you know, like let me know because sometimes I'm always everywhere I might speak very fast. So yeah, that's another thing I realized is especially my focus groups, that's something I do is I take my time and, and I have a group that has really low English, so sometimes I will express the questions through pictures and I do have like translators in the group too that, yeah, really are so helpful and so great. But for the most part, like I'll, now I'm like better. So like I, I've just realized with certain like, you know, as being in this research or even just working with different populations like, you know, I've I've learned a lot in general even though I'm from a culture as well. That gives me a lot of like lived experience too, but also realizing other things and other customs and things like that and you know, having conversations about like, you know when. You're building trust with people just having conversations about their culture because that's like a big part of their life, right? And I can tell some of these families have a hard time talking about their culture cause maybe where they're from, they've been silenced, like they can't do certain things in their culture. So, I told them like, no one’s gonna do that here. No one's going to tell you you can't do that. You can't do that. Right? You can pray. You can do what you need to to keep your culture alive as much as you want it to be, right?. Like, so

7:53: [Dr. G] I love that, especially with you being in like a counselor and being in the world of psychology and being an outlet for the people that you work with to feel comfortable. So I think that's another like, big thing is that individuals who are coming from various cultures may not feel comfortable talking to others like you said about their culture if they're not provided the opportunity and, and showed and demonstrated that it's okay. And while this shouldn't be the norm, unfortunately the way of the world is right now. Like I love that you are providing that space for those that you're working with so that they can feel more comfortable to open up and so that you can kind of get to the root quicker and that you can help support them in a more effective manner. So I love that so much. And then I want to ask just so that the listeners are privy, Can you please just explain, because we talked about this when we first met, the difference between refugee and immigrant because I don't know if everyone knows that or if its common knowledge

8:55: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, so a refugee is basically there's different types, right? Like here in Canada we have like refugee claimant, we have government assisted refugee which the government assists which they have to apply through their refugee camp. So most refugees could be war torn countries they're fleeing some type of prosecution or some type of danger, domestic violence, could be a lot of the different categories for that right? I'm not too well versed in that, but I know like the certain categories for the most part. So refugees usually they would get either the GAR program which is government assisted refugee (GAR) or they could apply as like the refugee claimant as well, which is a different kind of category as well. So usually they come here and they would get like education. They can feel like good here compared to where they were at where maybe there was a lot of trauma they experienced. And this is many parts of the world like that Canada has helped many refugees come in from different parts could be Ukraine, Syria, Iran, these are the ones recently that have been coming in that I've noticed. Yeah or just anywhere like it, it doesn't matter, right? It just really depends on like what's happening and kind of what Canada's, I guess forefront is and what they're able to do. And immigrants, it's they want to come here for a better life, but there's different ways to come here. So there's different statuses. So there's like temporary foreign worker, which is like the work permit. So maybe you get a job and that job gives you a work permit and you work here like a certain amount of years. And then maybe you can apply for permanent residency, which means like you're living in Canada permanently and then after that you can apply for Canadian citizenship. So the only difference between permanent resident and Canadian citizen is a Canadian citizen can vote but a permanent resident can't. That’s the only difference actually, it's yeah. But work permit only gives you like they have parameters of like working conditions, working hours. And then there's also people that come in with study permits because they're studying at certain universities through international fees. There's a lot of high school students that go to high school here. Their parents are under work permit, they're under the 18 age, like they're minors, so they'll be under their parents. But once they start university, if they still have that work permit, they can't get domestic fees, which is like the fee of permanent, If you're permanent resident or Canadian citizen, you get the Canadian fees for schools. But if you're not, then you have to pay the international fee. So sometimes some students will go to school. They won't. It depends because let's say someone who's, you know, domestic fees is like maybe 7,000 a year compared to like international, like 35,000, that’s a huge jump, right? So there's different categories. There's also like. There's so yeah, there's work permit, there's study permit, those are two common, that's refugee as well. I know some people what they do is like they get married to a spouse back in a different country and then they have to do like family sponsorship, spouse sponsorship, stuff like that as well. So yeah, there's many different like immigration categories and yeah, I'm, I'm sure they take a certain amount of time, like when my parents came in the 80s, it was different compared to now, of course. And then you also have like the International Student stream, which is different, where you're just coming here to study specifically as well. So yeah, so that's kind of the difference - Immigrants want to come here because they want a better life, they want to study, they want to get a job, and they want to contribute. I mean, refugees they’re running away from something that's causing them harm, but they want to go somewhere safe where they can, you know, have a life and maybe some of them potentially could go back. It really depends. I've had families from certain countries where like they did go back. Some just stayed and eventually became permanent residents and they work and do everything they can. So those are kind of the two. And I've met a lot of like I had a friend, she had to flee from a country and unfortunately it's because her job put her life on the line, her and her family, and she had like this position in legislation and stuff like that, so she had to get the refugee status. Come over here. She told me she hated it for the first five years because she didn’t know any English. She’s like I didn’t know any English. And then and her kids were born like in other country too but like she was like, ohh, Shelika I did not like Canada the first five years. Like really, I was like, ohh. But you know what, like after hearing her story, just the things she went through, like I totally understand. Like it's hard to trust people. It's really hard to trust people. And her, you know, with her, her trust has been broken so much, so coming here for a better life, like now what she's trying to do is trying to do like good things for the country that she's from, but also like she's still living here and she's liking it more here now as time goes by because, you know, she's getting really, she's like, I feel more confident speaking English. And I think that's one of the biggest things is the language barrier and also like if people are going to judge you the way you speak English, which there's no perfect English!

14:00: [Dr. G] No, there isn't, wild!

14:04: [Future Doctor Shelika] And it's. I always even tell people like when you're from a different country and you're here and you're young, like make sure you keep your second language, your third language. I think it's really important to, to keep that like I'm born here and I can speak Hindi, I have no problem, but I have an accent so, but people understand what I'm saying, so.

14:26: [Dr. G] Yeah, and that's OK. Like, again, there's no perfect way to speak English, like, yeah.

14:30: [Future Doctor Shelika] yeah, no, there isn't. There isn’t.

14:33[Dr. G]: Especially me being here in the United States, it's a whole other conversation that I'm like, really people. So yeah.

14:38 [Future Doctor Shelika] I mean vitamin, vitamin. Same as tomato, tomato, right?

14:43: [Dr. G] Yeah. Like, like, you can understand what people are saying get over it.

14:45: [Future Doctor Shelika] I mean, it gets the point across. And that's the thing. It's just I get a lot of sorry my English is so bad, like. And I was like, no, because if I'm clarifying, I just want to make sure that, you know, I'm understanding what you're saying and I'm helping you the best that I can, right? That's what I say is just that if I ask you questions like ohh, do you mean this, then it's yeah, then it's different. And we also have Google Translate. So yeah, I've used that a couple times too. Might not always be the best with different languages, but it gets the point across for the most part. And me and the family, sometimes we laugh because I'm like typing or saying something and it comes out wrong.

15:43: [Dr. G] Ohh, no. But I love how you're doing that to connect because you're trying to use all the tools that are available so that they can feel comfortable and you can make sure to clearly understand what they are trying to tell you. And yeah, like you have to use tools at times that. That that's OK, like there's nothing wrong with that. So I love that! I also want to say thank you for explaining the difference between refugee and immigrant. I appreciate that so much! Connecting to that, can you talk a little bit more about the research that you're focused on? I know It's kind of working towards servicing those populations. And those communities and really tapping into the mental health side of things. Can you please explain on that?

16:06: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah. Like, we know that immigrant and refugee mental health, it's it's very important. And we know especially for refugees, they deal with a lot of trauma. And I'm sure immigrants do as well, like in, in many ways from where they're from to. And I think one of the biggest things that I want out of the pre-assessment that I want to do is like basically I have like four simple questions translated into many languages with clinicians or different workers who speak the language who can also talk to them about this. And it's kind of like the questions I have is based off of like, do you have food? How do you feel being here? Like very basic type questions to really see like, OK, do they need further resources or not? And they're very basic questions. I didn't want to kind of go like what are your basic needs? What are like because they're not going to understand what basic needs is like you really have to go down. So I came up with some of the questions through like an ELL teacher, an English language learner teacher who teaches English to people who are new to Canada. So I kind of went to a teacher that was really well versed, has experience and can help me develop these questions and that they're easily translated into the languages that need translated right? And I wanted to make sure that you know it, it hits the points of like food, feeling, like how do you feel about the language here different things like that, so that if there is any type of concerns then you know, maybe we can help them with different resources as well. We also know like when people are new here, the biggest thing is to give them that sense of belonging, especially with students and families like it's sense of belonging and some of them it's obviously learning they want to learn English too. So we always like want to refer them to groups and different things where they can learn English and build that belonging right as well. And then from there kind of see like especially with the refugee populations also doing like assessment on trauma, which is what the clinicians do anyways and most of the clinicians I've been working with, they all have a second language. So they've been really great in helping me because I don't think they've really like gone through. I I'm sure they've heard my type of project before, but I'm kind of doing it like I guess in a small scale, but I just wanted to see because, you know, this project was run in the UK and Australia to see how immigrants and refugees are doing in the country and also what type of mental health help they need. And according to the pre-assessment tool is going to show me exactly where these families and individuals land. So it's really interesting now that I'm collecting data and in the initial phases, definitely I'm seeing a lot more trauma, which of course PTSD type symptoms in refugee populations, but we're also seeing it in the immigrant population as well. But the immigrant population is really more basic needs related. Refugees It's more, same thing survival, but it's hard to kind of get through that survival when you're traumatized and you know, there's a lot of more like behaviors happening there as well. Just meeting a couple of the families even in person that I've met and I have to go through a lot of privacy hoops. We have a lot of privacy hoops where I'm sure there is everywhere, but I have to go through a lot of privacy hoops to, to get the information and all of that. So, in the end it's we're taking a primary care approach, making sure that cause health psychology is also including all the clinicians, settlement workers, doctors, psychiatrists. I'm also working with about four psychiatrists spread out with the health authorities I'm working with and then they also told me, like, I guess the agreement we have is whenever I've done my research is like, I I give them my research so they can use it for their own purposes to make their department better, which is what I want.

19:54: [Dr. G] Yeah. That's amazing. Ohh. I love that!

19:58: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah. And I mean, the psychiatrists are very like, expert, they've been working with refugees for very, very long time, immigrants as well. And it's, it's nice to see that they know that there's different trends and then you, you know, different populations are always coming in, right? So, and you know, with my data collection, I've just noticed like so many different trends as well. You know, that makes me think about like writing about intergenerational trauma amongst different cultures. And I think I'm gonna do a chapter on that for sure.

20:30: [Dr. G] Yes. Ohh. I love that! That definitely is like it needs to be emphasized because like, , I don't think it's, it's starting to be talked about a little bit more, but I wish it was talked about like more at the forefront. Because, you know, something that tends to get swept under the rug a little bit, but like intergenerational trauma, because, you know, all of us even now, like you and I sitting here now, like the traumas that our parents felt and our grandparents felt and our great grandparents felt, and XY and Z, like they impact us more than we recognize. So, I love that!

21:03: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah. And I think it's, it's important because like, you know, I don't know what my great, great, great grandparents went through or what they've seen, but the country that my parents come from there there was like British rule and there was all these other things and colonization, which many countries it's happened in as well, and just different things that we've we've all experienced, right? So, and with like different populations coming in, there's every population has different needs and one of the biggest needs I see, it's obviously like making sure that obviously their basic needs like food, water, shelter, job. I think that's the main kind of questions I get is like and education for their kids and how to navigate the education system and things like that, right? And lots of populations, they don't want to access help. They're scared to access help. And I don't blame them because it's hard to trust people, like I said. But it's a process. You know, some people are from different countries. You do one thing, you get that thing. But here you have to fill out much paperwork to really get what you need, right? I mean. Unfortunately, that's how, how our system works. But filling out paperwork, me doing it compared to somebody who is new here who doesn't know the language and doesn't know what type of paperwork we need, it's it's different, right? They need assistance, they need help. And I think that's where like we come in as you know, frontline workers, counselors. However, that might look like, right? And I feel like when immigrants and refugees do come in, you know, there's a lot of programs that do help them. Like I know there's many programs that will attach them to somebody that speaks the same language, will come visit them. We'll take them grocery shopping and show them how to grocery shop and different things like that. But I don't know if those programs are long term or not. Or if it's short term, whatever it is. And I'm sure there is some great programs out there too. And I think for me it's also building a bank of resources here in Western Canada where I can refer, you know these clients because it's not just about ohh, I take the research and I'm done. It's more of like also what are these resources that we can refer these families, right? So yeah and then every program is different. They also have like they're funded by the government they say ohh you might have to just be a permanent resident you can only be a refugee you can you know like there's just certain standards for programs too as well so we have to think about that but I guess the most part it's. Is to really show how much they're struggling as well and how much help they, they would need and more like long term help as well.

23:36: [Dr. G] I love that! You're taking, obviously you're doing your research, but you're putting it human first. I think that's important because oftentimes, you know, as researchers and those in programs you can be like, Oh well, I'm just, you know, looking at these individuals to get their data and like, that's it. But you're thinking holistically. You're like, OK, yeah, you know I’m getting information from them and getting, collecting data in the sense of that I'm going to analyze that data, but I'm using the information that I'm gaining from these individuals to better understand them as a whole and better understand how I can truly help them with what they need and, you know, make a larger impact on them in the sense that, as you highlighted, basic needs is first and foremost that they can't really start to heal or go through the process of addressing trauma if their basic needs aren't met and they don't feel comfortable enough living in the new country that they are now in. And so I think that's so cool that you are doing that.

24:35: [Future Doctor Shelika] No, it's really great. I, I know it's tough, but you know, I, I think there is a lot of great research here in Canada and I've seen in America as well, a lot of great research that can coincide with the work that we're doing when people are coming in. And of course, I know there is a big negative connotation about like people coming in and taking jobs and all this, you know, type types of things. But my thing was always like, if anything happened to where I live, I would have to go to a different country too,  right? Then I would be a refugee because if something ever, God forbid, happened here and I would have to go to a different country and other people are like why are you here? You're taking your jobs and da-da-da-da, you know, I mean, I understand, but I also, there is room for everyone. I do believe that. And I think what I've seen working with immigrant and refugee populations that I have worked with and that I know is that everyone's really hard working and they do really want to make an impact where they live. They really do want to. Canada is a place where I can practice my religion, my culture, I can work, I'll pay taxes. I do all these things to make sure that I'm on my two feet. And they're really humble about it. And obviously there's two sides to everything, you could debate anything you want, right? But especially people who have to forcefully leave their country because it's just bad there. It's not livable. You know, I wouldn't want anyone to go through that, right? But unfortunately, people have seen or gone through really horrific things. And when they come here, safety, belonging, and basic needs is, is what it is, right? Like I used to work with a couple students before and they were from a certain country. I remember, like a couple people, I think, dropped their pens and then they went underneath their desk because they were so sensitive to the sound because they said there was bombs dropping every day where they were from, right? So it was really tough for them. And some of the students didn't understand. And, you know, as a group, we took a moment to really talk about like. You know, these students really talked about what they were going through a little bit in their past countries, and I think it was a good learning moment for those students to realize because some of the students were like, ohh, I just thought you came here and this, this, this. But you know. Yeah, no, it it kind of brings a learning moment about it as well. So yeah, I know like there's differing opinions and that's OK. Like to have differing opinions and everything like that. We all do in different things in our life. But I also know like it's tough. Like I've, I've seen my parents struggle. I've seen other people struggle. I think in Canada we're all like really lucky, but then well also Canada I think needs to do a lot of work when it comes to a lot of things, healthcare, immigrant, refugee stuff, mental health, I mean, the list can go on. I think any healthcare the list goes on. I can go on and on.

27:23: [Dr. G] I, I definitely can agree on that too. As far as like all the systems just need to be overhauled. If we had it my way, we’d burn all the systems down and start over. But I know that's unrealistic. And I know some people out there, will be like, what? What is this thought? But I agree that more can be done. And I give so much kudos for you for doing the work that you're doing.

27:45: Well, that concludes this episode, but please be sure to go check out episode 16, which will share part three or the final part of the conversation I had with future Doctor Shelika. And just as I'm having a conversation and sharing the experience of future Doctor Shelika, I ask you all to go out there and find your own support systems and have conversations with your peers so that you can collectively navigate your programs rather than feeling like you're braving storms on your own. If you are interested in hearing more episodes, and learning more about Broke PhD Podcast, then please check out the website – brokephdpodcast.com – to continue to follow along. I'm also gonna put a plug out there for my shop. So please, please, please go check out my shop with the website being – brokephdpodcast.shop – and to also share it with anyone and everyone you know. I am excited to share my art and to share my creativity with the world and I hope it brings you all as much joy as it brought me in creating it. Wherever you are in your own journey, I'm wishing you all the best and remember – YOU GOT THIS! Thank you again for listening and I'm your host, Dr. G, and I hope you have a wonderful day!