Episode 16 - A Conversation with Future Dr. Shelika: Part 3

This episode features the first guest ever on Broke PhD Podcast – Future Dr. Shelika Joshi! On this episode, Future Doctor Shelika continues to talk about her dissertation research as well as her research topic area of refugee and immigrant mental health. Additionally, she shares about her experience of being a woman of color in academia.

To connect with Future Dr. Shelika Joshi, please feel free to follow her on Instagram or reach out to her via email:

Instagram: @phdwithshelika

Email: shelikajoshi@gmail.com

Please, also check out the Broke PhD Podcast Shop: brokephdpodcast.shop

Listen to full episode :

Here is a transcription of Episode 16:

0:17: Hello and welcome to the Broke PhD Podcast! I'm your host, D.r G!

0:23: This episode shares the last part of the conversation I had with future Doctor Shelika. If you have not done so already, please go check out episodes 14 and 15 to listen to part one and part two of the conversation I had with future Doctor Shelika. On this episode, Future Doctor Shelika continues to talk about her dissertation research as well as her research topic area of refugee and immigrant mental health. And she shares about her experience of being a woman of color in academia.

0:54: [Dr. G] In listening to you share about that moment with the students and turning it into a teachable moment and trying just to enlighten them in that moment of like, hey, like, you may think it's no big deal, but this individual is coming at it from this perspective. You know, let's have a conversation about it. I think it's something that, like you said, we're all gonna, you know, agree or disagree on different points and different aspects. But I think at the end of the day, we need to be able to come together and talk and have teachable moments. And as you shared in the beginning, like, no one's an expert really in anything. And we may have a lot of knowledge and a lot of understanding about a niche area or a topic, but do we really know every single thing, even if it's our own topic? The answer is no. Like we will never know every single thing about the areas we work in. And I think some people come and don't recognize that and come at it from just a place of wanting to spew hate and wanting to not be open minded and that is just sad

1:57: [Future Doctor Shelika] And unfortunately, you know, growing up, I grew up in Alberta and you know, I, I've had my fair share of like, you know, discrimination, racism, I've, I've had it too. And, and a lot of microaggressions as well. But you know, I, I think. I take it as approach of if you're gonna be a certain way, that's not my problem. I know that I am who I am, and I know that if I don't know something about, like I had a family from Africa, from a country I've never heard from, what did I do? Go on the Internet right away. What is that country about? What tribes do they have? I kept on going because I was intrigued and I think that's important to do. I think, yeah, I'm not gonna know everything. Maybe I don't know everything. I asked the family some questions and they were telling me so much about different things and I'm OK doing that because you want to be open minded and maybe there's things I don't agree with and that's OK. Like we're all not gonna agree with things. There's always certain things and you know, it's totally fine. But for me, if I'm like learning something and that's not something I agree with it, it's OK. Like, OK, that's how it is. I understand. Or that's how maybe someone's family is, someone's life is, that's what they've been through. And I think that's the thing about refugee mental health or even immigrant mental health is just, you can't lump everybody in one category. Everybody has a different individual background or history. And yeah, people come in as refugees and they've all experienced different things, but they've also experienced very individual things. Might be violence, might be assault, might be you know, like getting kidnapped by a certain group, right, and being tortured, like different things like that. Like we don't know what these people have been through. They come here, they're already went through enough and they they're not understanding a lot of things here because, you know, things are different. What we try to do, like, and I want to do is just bring some empathy, humility and, you know, meet them where they're at. And, you know, I've met families like, you know, and even clinicians have during my research where they just don't want to talk about anything or do the assessment, which is fine. And then two weeks back, they're like, yeah, actually I'm gonna talk to the clinician and that's we're just, you know, they're like we realized not everyone's gonna be, you know, a certain way, right? We understand you're trying to help us. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. And I mean, in my research, I've kind of like have some stumps and, you know, gain and then go back. So yeah, it's interesting and I'm excited to see what comes out of it. Once I've done everything.

4:36: [Dr. G] I think it's so important and I'm also excited to see your results and I cannot wait. So your time frame, you said you're hoping to write at least two chapters, hopefully by December, by the end of this year.

4:48: [Future Doctor Shelika] Hopefully. I’m supposed to be graduating in 2026, I think.

4:52: [Dr. G] OK, OK. You got time, yeah, 2 1/2 years that is that is so much time.

5:00: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, yeah, I was like, OK. Their like how many chapters do you want to write? I was like I haven’t even thought that far. Oh my god future question.

5:10: [Dr. G] But sometimes the chapters just write themselves as in like, because like you said you wanted to include like a chapter on intergenerational trauma, you know, there might be something else which you’re like, oh, I also need to include this to make sure that you give like that holistic picture to set up your research.

5:25: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah and as I was going through, I'm just like, I remember me and my supervisor were discussing and she was just like, because I was telling her, you know, I'm thinking of writing a chapter on recommendations because, you know, I'm doing a clinical part, which is an internship, like working with families and stuff and plus being a counselor. What are some recommendations? And she's like, oh, I think that would be really great. Like, different recommendation, or different resources, or different things you can add on and having the help of like the psychiatrists or you know, other psychologists for the recommendations and stuff like that. I think it’s, I think it's it's a good chapter to have and then adding credit from the psychiatrists and stuff as well, so.

6:04: [Dr. G] Yeah, I love that! I think it would also be a good like manuscript on its own too. And if you condense it, but that would be something that you could already have readily and available to provide for other clinicians too. Is something that you know is like a more condensed version because sometimes people don't sit there and read 200 plus pages worth of a dissertation manuscript, I don't know why? But sometimes they don't. That having an additional standalone manuscript where it would just be the recommendations and then you can share those out so that they can get those tools and start to implement them sooner would be amazing too. I don't know. Is that something that you have thought about?

6:44: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, I have thought about it. Like I, I kind of deal with discussing it with my supervisor. She was saying I think it'd be good. And then she said having it as like a separate thing that you could even add more on, take more off. And then depending on the time, the year, and the trends, you can always change it, right? She said that would be a good post doc to do.

7:04: [Dr. G] I know earlier you shared you didn't want to do a postdoc, so even if you don't do a full postdoc or a postdoc at all, just even writing that like manuscript afterwards, I think would be very beneficial for the field and for the individuals in the communities that it would be geared towards helping. So I love that!

7:20: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, it would be great to even use it for the US, but I know their trends are a little bit different and, their immigration process is very different. That would be like a whole different ball game. Yeah.

7:33: [Dr. G] yeah. But it could be for anybody listening, it could be a partnership, collaboration opportunity,

7:37: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, Collaboration. Collab with me.

7:40: [Dr. G] If you wanna come and meet up with Shelika you could do like Canada versus US and then, you know, just compare then try to do recommendations that would work for both. I don't know, just putting it out there. Manifestation era!

7:53: [Future Doctor Shelika] I’m open to it so if anybody is listening and is interested in that you can always DM me on Instagram

8:02: [Dr. G] and I will have all of your Instagram and contact information in the description box below so feel free to check that out if you're interested in connecting with Future Doctor Shelika. But shifting gears, we kind of talked about it for a brief moment, just like little like tip of the iceberg being that we both are women of color in academia. Can you just kind of share about your experience navigating this academic world and the academic field being a woman of color?

8:31: [Future Doctor Shelika] I guess you know, like I, I come from a field where there's a lot of women and I think in the last couple of years I've seen more women of color in psychology, I've seen more women in STEM, and I follow a lot of women in STEM as well on Instagram. But in my field, I think in general, like women of color are underrepresented, not even just in psychology, but in, in doctorate studies or even becoming a professor, like I was looking at I think it was someone's Instagram and they had a post about US professors and women of color were really underrepresented on that. And I think, you know, as time goes on, I think it it'll change, but the same time I think one of the biggest things is I had in the beginning a lot of walls, walls I was hitting, depending on what class I was in, if I wanted to add something that was more culturally appropriate or inclusive, not as much now as I did before, but definitely in my papers where, you know I would always bring that cultural perspective in because I wanted to be as holistic, not even just holistic, but inclusive as possible, right? Because what we go through, like let's say in psychology or counseling, it's going to be different for each population, right? So, you know, I'm born here, Canadian, but my parents are from somewhere else versus someone that comes here and has to work here and do all these other things. There's different experiences still there. And, you know, acknowledging the struggles that people have been through, especially women of color. And you don't see a lot of women in color in high positions. You don't see a lot of women in color being professors as much. I see more as years are going by, which is great. So you're like pushing through the mold. But yeah, my experience for the most part has been good. It's been challenging at times. Sometimes in the room. I'm the only colored person. I've been in a job where I was the only colored person. It hasn't really been like so tough, but it's it can be if people are being insensitive. And I, and like I said, I, I definitely, the insensitivity comes mostly from the microaggressions because people maybe either don't realize or yeah, let's say they just think it's normal. Like the most common things I used to get is kind of like, ohh, you're South Asian, but your English is so good, right? Kind of like, ohh, well, I'm born here, or like where are you from? Canada. Where are you from, from? Like Canada. No, like where your ancestors like ohh, India. You know, or just, yeah, like, you know, you get. So it's not even just that, but just more microaggressions of like, ohh, aren't you supposed to be a doctor or like, aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? Aren't you supposed to be like, you know.

11:21: [Dr. G] Like pigeonholing you, basically.

11:23: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah. Or lots of South Asian people run convenience stores or drive taxis or, you know, I've heard that before too and I was just kind of like when I was young, I used to laugh at that. OK. I sometimes will still laugh at it, not because I dismiss it, because OK, right like that’s your problem or just kind of like when I was growing up I think one of the biggest things that I still remember to this day. There's two things. And I talked about it, I think maybe like a long time ago. But one thing is when I was younger, I remember everybody was wearing blue eye shadow or this type of eye shadow. And and I remember most of my friends were Caucasian. And I wanted to be like Britney Spears. I wanted to, you know, like people had the blue eyeshadow look. I wore it and one girl was like, “you have dark skin.” “You have darker skin. Like your skin complexion is different. You look different. Why are you wearing blue eyeshadow? It doesn't look good.” Type of thing. Or secondly, I'm trying to remember “you don't look like you're Canadian.” Which how does a Canadian look?

12:30: [Dr. G] Yeah. What is Canadian supposed to look like?

12:33: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, I've had, like, different things like that or I've, you know, like my name. Like people would think they would say, Oh my, let's say they're hiring me. My name is Shelika. I come up and their like I thought you were gonna be a different race. Like, OK, and I know what they're thinking, right?

12:53: [Dr. G] Like what are what is my name suggests like

12:55: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah. They thought I was gonna be like a different race or like, ohh, I thought you're gonna be this. I was like, ohh, OK. And like I said, I don't really, you know, it's one thing to be disrespectful but microaggressions like really depends on like everyone's threshold. But for me, sometimes I like I always say, you know, I've heard stories of people going through like a lot of stuff here in Canada as well. I mean, racism is everywhere. It's everywhere. It doesn't matter, Canada, US, blah, blah. Lots of people say here it’s less. It's it's here. It's not like in your face all the time. But The thing is, there's microaggressions on a daily basis. But yeah, that's what I used to experience like all the time, like growing up or, you know, in our culture, we would put hair oil in our hair. So my mom used to put in my hair, braided, send me to school. But some girls were like, your hair smells bad. What type of food did you bring? You know, cause it's cultural food and we put oil in our hair. That's what South Asian people do. They always put oil in their hair, right? That’s what we do. Ohh. Your hair smells weird or you know, like, and that's long time ago. Nobody says that now at all. I'll put hair oil in for work and nobody says anything to me because they, I think people and not that people are more aware, but I know the people that I specifically work with, they're also immigrants themselves and everybody in Canada is an immigrant. The only people who aren't are the First Nations and indigenous people of Canada.

14:23: [Dr. G] Same with the US! Shout that out people that the only…we're all literal immigrants and invaded this area… anyways!

14:29: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, that's why we do those land acknowledgements, like in our presentations and things like we are learning and unlearning and the unseated territories here where I am, Musqueam, Squamish, you know, like all these. And each province is different. They have their own one, so we say that in under like the reconciliation and actual reconciliation, but obviously there's always more, there's work to be done in different things in different areas, but you know, it's a start. It's been like that for a couple years now. So like every time you're presenting or people are maybe in a podcast on certain lands or whatever they feel like saying they'll say it according to where they're living. It's nice to hear that we even put in our e-mail signatures and stuff like that. So yeah, that's that stuff is important to recognize that the land we're living in is is a land that we are learning and unlearning being on. And I've had like a great opportunity to go to some reserves here in Alberta and it was such a great experience like I really liked it. I loved the culture! People are so great and their culture so rich right and just hearing all the things they've been through and obviously knowing from history makes you realize a lot of things, right? So obviously it's different learning from the books and actually like hearing it first hand, right? I think that that I'm that type of person. I like going places and learning things and doing stuff like that because I think it's important to be rooted. Like, you know, your feet on the ground and be humble and rooted. Yeah. And even like whenever I try to go to the US, I was like, I wanna do different things. I wanna learn different things. Last year I went to Louisiana and I've never been down that far in the US and I really loved it. It was great. And you know, talking to people and seeing like diversity, that much diversity, like we have a lot of diversity in Canada, but it just felt so good. I really liked being there. Like, and I've been to Texas before too. So I just feel like, oh, I could live here, but I don't know if I actually could could. I have family in California. And I love like California too. And I have some family up like New York, Ohio area, too. But you know, because I'm like always Vancouver and Calgary. Whenever I’m in Vancouver, like I should just drive down to Seattle. Yeah, go check it out. So, yeah, like, I, I feel like I wanna travel. I wanna learn more. And, you know, I think that's just who I've always been. Like, I don't want to be pigeonholed, you know, I just feel like if you're in that pigeonhole, like you just, you don't want to learn it, you just kind of like you just stay there.

17:26: [Dr. G] Yeah, no, I agree. I actually have a viewpoint that is not that morbid. But you have like two deaths. The 1st is obviously the one you're actually like gone and dead, but the other one is when you stop learning and stop growing and when people stop expanding their minds and stop wanting to understand new things and wanting to learn about new things, you kind of stifle yourself and you just become stagnant. And so I think it's truly important just to continue to learn and to grow as an individual.

17:58: [Future Doctor Shelika] It is it's it's, it's important I feel like when you're on this earth, you want to try to make the best out of everything and we’re all gonna make mistakes. Have I made mistake when it comes to maybe things I've said to people or, you know, like to different families and whatever? Of course, of course I've made mistakes, right? And you learn from that, you become a better person. And you know, like I said, we don't know everything. We're not experts at everything. I don't stand here and say that I know everything. Because I don't. And even being in clinical health psychology, yeah, I'm studying this particular area, but there's so many parts of health psychology I probably still don't know and that's OK. That's totally fine. Yeah, I studied it. Yeah, I'm doing a dissertation on a specific area, but there's so many aspects I don't know. And that's OK because. I feel like even being a counselor, you can't really technically be an expert. Like you're always learning. That's why we always do training, right? And I feel like the day that someone says kind of expertise, everything, I'm good at everything. Like it's just done. Like I'm like, you can't it just doesn't work like that. It's like saying you don't argue with your spouse because you do. Like you're gonna argue like it's part of life, right? So. Yeah, I like it. I don't know, maybe that's not the best example to use, but.

19:18: [Dr. G] No, but it works, it works, it's true.

19:20: [Future Doctor Shelika] But yeah, like I just, that's what I think it's, I feel like we have this one life and you carry this body and this mind around with you all the time. You sleep with it, you wake up, you work, you do everything. Why put yourself in a position where you just learning a certain amount of things and being comfortable? Because if you're in that comfortable state your whole life and you're never gonna be uncomfortable, you're not gonna learn. Right? If you don't make mistakes, you don't go through bad things in your life like you're not gonna learn and you're not gonna get through adversity. The most powerful people in the world I know have been through the most adversity in their life. And I would say that immigrants and refugee families themselves are very resilient people, very resilient. They've been through so much adversity. I think that being here in Canada and them trying to make a good life and already having the skills to be that resilient, we'll get them even farther, right? So that that's another thing it's I think resilience is just, it's so hard to build. But I think the most resilient people we meet have been through the most adversity, right? That's. I think that's a really big thing.

20:30: [Dr. G] Kind of to bring it full circle and wrap it up and kind of have a closure, I guess as much as you can. I ask you, is there anything that you want to share with the listeners, whether they're individuals who are going through an educational program or they're individuals who are just going through life overall, any takeaways that you wanna leave them with?

20:54: [Future Doctor Shelika] I mean, if you're in an educational program, the only thing that I gotta say is you're in that program for a reason and you're chosen for a reason to be in the program. You're working hard and you're going to, there's an end to it. There's an end to that education, right? Lifelong learning is always there. Lifelong, You can always take anything to learn anything lifelong. That's going to be there, right? School will be done when you want it to be done. But lifelong learning you can get from anything. And I feel like experience really teaches you a lot. So if you can put yourself out there and learn, it's plus your academia, it's, it's even better, right? And I think you just have to learn to be uncomfortable. You, you won't grow when you're comfortable. It's it, it just won't happen. It's just going to be stagnant. And I'm not a stagnant person. I'm always trying to reach the stars, which I mean, I think it has its drawbacks too, of course. But you know, always learn, always be open to listen to people. You might not agree with them. Like I said, it's OK, but take what they say and be like, maybe that's a different way I can think about something. And if you can't, that's OK too. And having that space to listen to people, there's a lot of people who don't feel like they're they're listened to, like they don't have anyone that can listen to them. And if you can be that person to listen. It'll be very, very powerful, for sure. So yeah, lifelong learning. And, you know, there's an end to education when you want to and just keep on pushing through, you know, everything that you're doing because we're all capable of doing that, right? And like I said, if you want to stop something, you can stop it, like education it has an end to it in some aspect, like PhD, but if you want to do other small things, part of that, that's still part of education too, but that's also part of lifelong learning. That's never gonna end. If you're gonna stop lifelong learning, I think that's when you pigeonhole yourself, right? And lastly, I just want to say to all the people who are listening, if you're doing a PhD or a masters, I'm gonna give you a round of applause because honestly, I went through it and I know you have too Keshia, but it's, it's no joke. I don't even know how I got through my masters, but I don't even know how I'm getting to my PhD sometimes. But if you are thinking of doing Graduate School, really think about you know why you wanna do it? Also think about the school you wanna go to, of course, but also think about what you want for yourself. Those things are really important to have in your life. And I feel like it's hard not to make your PhD all about your life, but try not to. Yeah. My PhD is part of who I am and what I'm doing, but I also have me as an entity. Like, I'm Shelika I like doing these other things. I'm not always going to be like, I am Shelika with a PhD one day, that's gonna happen. But, you know, I also need to take care of myself.

23:55: [Dr. G] I love that! Yes, just repeat that. You gotta take care of yourself!

23:59: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, you have to. Yeah, I mean, you have like, you can't run a car with an empty gas tank, it just ain't gonna happen. It ain't gonna happen. So it's not easy. Like I think even you can say it Keshia too. It's just being in a PHD's not easy. It isn't easy. Nothing's easy. You know, I like I said, I feel like if you're in this program for a reason. You're put here for a reason and you're working through it. Doesn't matter how long it takes you, right? Doesn't matter. You're getting through it. You're going through it. You're learning through adversity. I feel like a PhD student, even a masters student, whatever type of student you are, you're going to go through adversity. If you haven't been through adversity, you have not lived. You have not lived. If your life has always been like very comfortable and no problems. You need to have adversity to learn.

24:50: [Dr. G] Also lucky for you if you haven't gone through adversity.

24:52: [Future Doctor Shelika] Yeah, some people are like, ohh, I haven't been through anything major, but what's maybe major to them is not major to the next person.

25:00: [Dr. G] Exactly. And that's OK too, that everyone's threshold is different that some people can handle a big thing and other people, you know, handle or, you know, get upset over smaller things and that's OK too.

25:13: [Future Doctor Shelika] I mean, it's a lot of advice packed in one. It's all life lessons. And no, make mistakes, make them. Like I used to be afraid to make mistakes. Make them. I just made a mistake last week. I was frustrated for three days in a row. Because I was like, Oh my God. Like I screwed up something in my data collection. Now I have to go back. But you know what my supervisor told me too, that's how you learn, right? You're sometimes going to rewrite a chapter. You're like, I don't like it, cut it. Right. Like it's, it's gonna happen. Like you're gonna probably do that a million times. She's like, she told me, get used to it.

25:53: [Dr G] I think that is also something that's hard, like you said earlier, that a lot of us in PhD programs especially, but in educational programs are perfectionist and so being OK with not doing something correctly the first time, especially when it came to like writing. I think my approach with writing, I started off being like, ohh, I need to write it from like start to finish and it needs to be perfect in order and anything I write needs to be like this masterpiece. But recognizing that especially when writing my dissertation. That it worked out better of just doing it in chunks and like writing down a few thoughts and then writing down a few sentences and writing down a few paragraphs. That it's OK if something isn't going to be done perfectly the first time. Like you said, you need to make those mistakes and you need to write the crap edit so that you can get to your final work and your final product. That I think those of us in programs have a hard time with making those mistakes. And I think that was a key piece of advice is that you're gonna make mistakes. And we need to start getting comfortable and be OK with making mistakes so that we can learn and so that we can grow. I appreciate you being here and I appreciate you sharing and I appreciate you just sharing your experiences and sharing what you have gone through, what you have experienced, what others have gone through. Because all of these perspectives and all these experiences are important and necessary to share out so that those out there know that they're not alone, but then that they can also gain the understanding and perspectives of others. Because I think like we shared earlier, sometimes like people come with their own mindset and their own experiences and forget that somebody else might have a different experience. And so having that exposure allows individuals to grow. So I love that! So thank you!

27:41: [Future Doctor Shelika] Thank you so much for having me, Keshia!

27:44: Well, that concludes this episode, but I hope you have enjoyed this three-part segment of “A Conversation with Future Doctor Shelika.” Please be on the lookout for future episodes that also feature conversations I have with some more amazing individuals. And just as I had A Conversation with Future Doctor Shelika and she shared her experience, I encourage you all to go out there and to engage in conversation with your peers so that you can collectively navigate your programs rather than feeling like you're braving storms on your own. If you are interested in hearing more episodes and learning more about Broke PhD Podcast, then please check out the website – brokephdpodcast.com – to continue to follow along. I'm also going to put a plug out there for my shop, so please, please, please go check out my shop with the website being –

brokephdpodcast.shop – and to also share it with anyone and everyone you know. I am excited to share my art and to share my creativity with the world and I hope it brings you all as much joy as it brought me in creating it! Wherever you are in your own journey, I'm wishing you all the best and remember – YOU GOT THIS! Thank you again for listening and I'm your host, Dr. G, and I hope you have a wonderful day!