Episode 21 - A Conversation with Dr. Michelle Gibbs: Part 2
This episode features Dr. Michelle Gibbs, also known as Mrs Mummy PhD. On this episode, Dr. Michelle Gibbs shares about being a Black Immigrant woman navigating the world of academia. Additionally, we talk about the importance of having or building your own support system to aid you as you navigate your academic or personal life. Dr. Gibbs also shares some key takeaways that will hopefully aid you as you navigate along your own journey. This episode is part two of a two part segment, so be sure to listen to the first part of our conversation, part one (Episode 20).
To connect with Dr. Michelle Gibbs, please feel free to check out her website, connect with her via her social media platforms, and/or reach out to her via email:
Website: mrsmummyphd.com
Instagram: @mrsmummyphd
@scholarlymamas
Email: contact@mrsmummyphd.com
Listen to full episode :
Here is a transcription of Episode 21:
0:17: Hello and welcome to the Broke PhD Podcast, where we build relationships or kindle emotions with every episode! I'm your host Dr. G!
0:26: This episode is part two of a two-part segment, so if you have not done so already, please go check out episode 20, which is part one of the two-part segment of “A Conversation with Dr. Michelle Gibbs.”
0:40: On this episode, Dr. Michelle Gibbs shares about being a Black Immigrant woman navigating the world of academia. Additionally, we talk about the importance of having or building your own support system to aid you as you navigate your academic or personal life and Dr. Gibbs shares some key takeaways that will hopefully aid you as you navigate along your own journey.
1:03: [Dr. G] And so I want to continue our conversation and being that we are both Black women who have navigated education and navigating the world, I just want to have a conversation about that and if you want to share anything, any experiences, any specificities to being a Black woman in education and being a Black mom and being a Black woman navigating the professional world. Can you please talk about that for a little bit?
1:30: [Dr. Gibbs] Yeah. Ohh. My goodness, that that. How much time have we got?
1:35: [Dr. G] I know. And I was like you can’t compress it all into like 5 minutes. I know this is a very, like, there's a lot we could talk about.
1:41: [Dr. Gibbs] There's a lot we can talk about.
1:43: [Dr. G] So I guess the tip of the iceberg.
1:46: [Dr. Gibbs] Yes, I think that it is really important for us as Black women in academia or just in society in general, to really represent each other, represent ourselves, carry ourselves with grace, represent ourselves in a way that encourages others who look like us. Because I am, you know, my thing is that we can't become what we cannot see. And if we don't see each other represented out there, represented in, in, you know, higher positions, represented in academia, represented at a certain level, educational level, then how can we set the pace and the tone and really encourage others to do the same? It's really important for me as a Black woman to, to do that, not just for society, but for my kids. For my kids to see that because we've got Black sons and we all know there's so much stereotypes that go with that. And you know, and I always say to my sons, like when you look at someone, don't look at the exterior only, like, you know, you need to get to know people before you cast judgment, before you make any, draw any conclusions as to what they're capable of because people may look at me and think, you know, well, who are you and what have you done? And then when they get to know me and they get to realize what I have done, it's like, ohh, wow. No, it's not a oh wow. You've obviously made some judgments before you've got to know me. So let's not do that and let us encourage our kids as well not to do that because it starts from there. And that's what I say to our sons all the time. You know, first of all, no one can stop you from achieving anything that you are destined to achieve. That's the first thing. The sky is the limit. You do, you know, do you and you know, just go after the goals you want to go after. No one can stop you from doing that. I have shown them. And one of the things that has been my, I guess my, my motivation to continue to pursue my goals is to show them that they can pursue their goals. They can do hard things. It doesn't matter the color of their skin. It doesn't matter how many other people look like them. They can pursue their goals. And that's exactly what I've done and exactly what I'm teaching them to do. And I guess, you know. From the, from the perspective of being, being, you know, one of the, the only Black people in my department, you know, they're, they're not that many of us. That has always been a thing that I guess more inspired me than demotivated me. So for me it's always been OK, so hasn't been done before, I'll do it or you know, hasn't been achieved, I can show you that it's possible to achieve. And not in a way that is, you know, look at me, I'm all that, not, not in that way, but more in a way, you know, I'm not gonna let this be a barrier to my own success. I'm going to take ownership of that, and I'm going to navigate these systems that perhaps are not in my favor to my own advantage. And so that's what I've done.
5:24: [Dr. G] Thank you! Thank you for sharing that! And having the representation is something that is so important. And so I love that you emphasize that, that you were motivated if there wasn't anybody that looked like you that you want to be that representation for those that are coming after you. And something that I find interesting to you is because obviously we, well, for those that don't know, we are also in two different countries that you were in the UK and I'm in the US. And the fact that we are two Black women in two different parts of the world who have similar thoughts on things speaks volumes for the world out there and for what globally the perspectives of things are. And yes, having that representation and being that representation, that if there's not many in your department that look like you, you are becoming that representation as you said, that if someone hasn't done it before, that you do it and you did it and you are showing those exemplars and being those examples. And I love that so much!
6:20: [Dr. Gibbs] I think one of the other things for me as well is. You know, I am not just a Black woman in academia, but I am also, you know, I wasn't born in this country. And so for me, it's also about being an Immigrant as well. There's so many of us that are navigating that world in academia. In, in, in healthcare, in, in whatever professions we're in. And that comes with its challenges as well. You know, that comes with its challenges as well. People make so many assumptions sometimes about your abilities and you feel that you've got to prove yourself. Well, you know, I think again, being that representation, not just from the perspective of being Black, but also as an as a Black Immigrant, I think is really, really, really important as well.
7:11: [Dr. G] Hmm, and that's a good point too, is that you are walking in a space that sometimes those around you may not have understanding or may not want to have understanding or like you said, are coming with their own preset notions and judgments. And yeah, it's a lot.
[Dr. Gibbs] It's a lot.
[Dr. G] It's a lot.
7:29: [Dr. Gibbs] It's a lot. But I think it's really important, I think as well that PhD supervisors are advocates and allies for their Black, potentially Immigrant or not, students. You know, I really am so grateful for the PhD supervisors that I had because I feel like that's exactly what I had. I had that allyship. I had that advocacy from them to be, you know, to be able to navigate my journey in a way that that wasn't a barrier for me. It wasn't a factor to my success. It wasn't a determinant of my success. And I think some credit goes to, you know, supervisors who aren't, who don't look like me, but are very, very supportive and very much advocates for me when I'm, you know, in, in rooms and in spaces where I'm not present. So that was really important for me as well.
8:34: [Dr. G] Yeah, that's a big thing to emphasize too, is that the support system of those around you, whether you're navigating an educational program or in your professional life, if you have mentors, or managers or whatever the title might be. Being able to have individuals that will still advocate for you and stand up for you even when you're not present makes a difference. Because people can say a lot to your face and say that they support XY and Z, but it's what individuals do when you're not in the room or when others who are in similar communities as you or similar backgrounds as you aren't in the room, that speaks volumes and really kind of shows the true colors of individuals. So yeah, that's important to emphasize that too is for those listeners out there just try as much as possible and obviously you know you can't vet everybody that there may be, people that smile in your face and stab you in the back. That's a thing that happens. And hopefully you never have to experience that. But your support system makes a difference. And so trying to, especially when or if you're navigating an educational program and if you're doing it while having a family, that's another big part to, is to try to find a support system that it has your best intentions.
9:48: [Dr. Gibbs] Absolutely! Ohh, my goodness, I could not have said that any better. That is so important, especially from your committee, your supervisors or advisors. I think you guys called them over there. You know, really important to have those conversations, have those conversations and get the support that you need in order to carry on through. I had to take multiple maternity breaks during my PhD. You know, things had to be put on pause, you know, while I was off having our sons and then taking the maternity break, which was almost a year for me in each case. So I really needed supportive supervisors and a supportive environment in which to be able to, to thrive in that. And that was actually a huge part of the reason why I was able to continue my PhD successfully. And of course my support at home, you know, my husband has been incredible, like, I could not have done this without him and his support and just everything that he does for us there's no way I could have done it and so you know, we have to give credit where it's due. And I think for me, that support system, my husband, my supervisors has been everything. I would not have been able to do this without that support.
11:12: [Dr. G] And yeah, to reiterate giving a big shout out to those that support and for those listening and you might be thinking, oh, I don't have that support system or I'm not going to be able to find that, that you are still capable of doing it too. It may be hard and it may be more challenging because of other factors, but if you don't have that support system within your family, sometimes you can find it within friends or find other individuals who may not have a support system that you guys can help one another And use that body doubling and use that motivation to say, hey, did you do this or did you do that? And you know, let's be accountability partners and you can build your own support system. So I don't want listeners out there to be like, hey, I don't have this, you know, family. There are ways that you can find your own support that it may not have been, you may not have been born into the support system because that happens too, or you may not have found a partner or a husband or a wife that can support you. But you might be able to find friends or a colleague or someone else going through the program who is also kind of a lone wolf and you guys can pack up together.
12:21: [Dr. Gibbs] Honestly, like this, this is actually the reason why I started Scholarly Mamas. So Scholarly Mamas is my community for Mamas who are navigating this journey, whether you've, whether you're partnered or not, right. This is this is a space for community building. This is a space to support each other. This is a space to have accountability because like you said, not everybody's gonna have family support. We are having a whole family life over here in the UK and most of our families not, we don't have any family here. Like we have no extended family here. So navigating, you know, maternity, having kids, childcare, all that without that extended family has been incredibly difficult. And I know that there's so many others who are solo parenting or who are navigating motherhood with no, you know, extended family support and that's why like you said, you have to remember that if you don't have it, build it, you know, find communities where you can have that support, find spaces that are encouraging and nurturing for you that you can have that system of support that solace, that community to really share this experience with because it's really hard to do this without any support at all. And I think that's kind of the take home message. If you don't have that support at home or in an extended family, create that community for yourself. Go join a community like Scholarly Mamas or others and find and create that for yourself. You really, really do need that support.
14:05: [Dr. G] And I will make sure that all of Dr. Gibbs's contact information and the at’s for Instagram for Mrs Mummy PhD and Scholarly Mamas will be in the description box below. So go check that out and go join those communities too. And as we kind of transition, as you said, takeaways, we're going to transition to that portion of our conversation. What takeaways do you have for the listeners to aid them as they navigate along their own journeys?
14:34: [Dr. Gibbs] I think really the first thing is to see your PhD journey as a journey of self-discovery. So this is more than just getting a title and getting an accolade. You are learning so much on this journey, but you're not just learning a lot of scientific or academic knowledge, you're also learning a lot about yourself. You're learning to set boundaries. You are learning to advocate for yourself. You're learning how strong you are and how much you can actually tolerate or not on this journey. You're, you know, growing in motherhood and you know, for those who are who are navigating motherhood, parenting. And really if you see it as a journey of self-discovery, I think that helps you to really appreciate the, the, the journey part of it rather than just focusing on the destination and finishing a degree and graduating because that's like that's the icing on the cake. That's the cherry on top, but really, I think the real value of doing a PhD is how you grow as a person during this journey. Like, I don't know about you, but for me, at the beginning of my, when I look at myself at the beginning of my PhD and at the end of it, these are two different people. I am not the same person. I experienced so much growth on this journey and so seeing it as a journey of self-discovery is really crucially important. Now for mamas, there's an extra layer here and that is the real importance of, you know, saying yes to help, saying yes to support and you know, if you don't have that, as we said, you can create it, you can find it, but really not taking this on, not navigating this journey completely alone. It just, you know, it goes back to that analogy of keeping your head down and, you know, not looking up and staying in that darkness, like, nobody wants that. And a PhD journey is lonely enough by itself. Like, you know, doing it as a mum is 10 times more lonely. So really hold your head up, really look up, look around you, see, you know, pick up on the things that are fueling your energy and bringing you joy, bringing joy, love, and light into your life and really make space and time for those things. It's so important. And like I said, saying yes to help. Like that's all. That's never a bad thing. And also this idea, I guess of I always talk or joke with my scholarly mama's about putting down the superwoman cape, right? You don't need to be superwoman. You don't need to do it all, and you certainly don't need to do it all right now. So that's the temptation, like so many of us are buried and overwhelmed because we're trying to do all the things for all the people all the time. Running around like, you know, there's no tomorrow and really just taking some deep breaths and realizing that the world is not going to stop if your house is not perfectly tidy and clean and spotless. Let go of that perfectionism that you don't have to be a perfect mom. You don't, and I always say to my mamas as well, you don't have to be perfect to be purposeful. And so navigating this journey with purpose is what actually gets you through, what actually allows you to finish well. And so really focusing on that, prioritizing your well-being so, so important. Those would be my kind of main takeaways.
18:18: [Dr. G] Those are amazing. And just to emphasize, the last takeaway for sure is that you don't have to be perfect to be purposeful. I wanna say that again for everyone out there and shout for the ones on the back, you don't have to be perfect to be purposeful. That, and I remember having this conversation with another one of my guests and that those in academia specifically, especially if you're doing a PhD program, that we tend to be perfectionist. That it can't be submitted if it's not the perfect paper. It can't be completed if it's not the perfect project. That it doesn't deserve your attention if it's not the perfect, you know, internship or whatever the case may be, but that's not reality. That perfectionism is just a fallacy of the mind, that it doesn't actually exist in the real world. And that is so important to emphasize that you can have purpose without everything being perfect. That, that doesn't, it doesn't exist. That you can have purpose and not be a perfect person and that's OK.
[Dr. Gibbs] That's OK.
[Dr. G] Oh, Oh yes!
19:24: [Dr. Gibbs] I remember listening. No, I remember reading on threads recently one of the PhD pages that I follow, I forgot the name, that was just terrible. But basically they said a finished PhD is never perfect and a perfect PhD is never finished. And that was that just resonated for me because I'm like, yeah, like if you want to finish well, you have to accept that you are not going to be perfect. You're not gonna be perfect at every part of this. This is not going to be a perfect PhD, but it doesn't mean that you cannot navigate this journey with purpose.
20:01: [Dr. G] Ohh, I love this! I think about now how many people who are out there who have written a dissertation or written a paper, and you know, whether you're at the start of your educational journey or if you're writing a paper for work or if you're just writing a paper, just to write a paper, that how much your writing evolves over time. That the very first paper you wrote was probably trash, that it wasn't the greatest thing ever, but you still wrote it. It's still for some of you got published and it was a finished product. But now you're writing has evolved, it has grown. It's probably, you know, beautiful and you can charm everyone through your writing, but that first piece of writing and that first paper you wrote was probably trash and that's OK.
20:44: [Dr. Gibbs] Yeah, this goes back to the idea of journey of self-discovery and personal growth, like you are growing as a writer. You are growing as an academic. You are developing yourself in your skills. Nobody expects that you are going to start off, you know, with everything together. And you know, if that was the case, you wouldn't need a supervisor/advisor, would you? You’d just, just tell them, actually, can I have PhD, please? And actually, no that's the reason why you've got support and guidance because you are learning. You are a student of academia. And even after you finish your PhD, you will continue to learn, you’ll continue to grow, you’ll continue to develop. So this is a journey of lifelong learning that we are embarking on. So to look at this as just, you know, finishing my PhD. I've done it, you know, I've, I've got the title and that's it is actually not the purpose of what you are doing. You are here to learn and grow in whatever capacity you're placed, but seeing it as a journey of lifelong learning is, is really the only way to embrace that personal growth and, and the journey of self-discovery.
21:59: [Dr. G] Yes! As we're coming to the end of our conversation, are there any additional thoughts or comments or any epiphanies that kind of came to mind that you want to share with the listeners?
22:10: [Dr. Gibbs] Not that I can think of, but I have really enjoyed being in this conversation. I love connecting with people one-on-one like this. And when I'm recording these episodes, I never really think about the fact that other people are listening to it.
22:27: [Dr. G] I know that is a point, so “Hi” to all the listeners out there who are part of our conversation, we are here.
22:33: [Dr. Gibbs] Yeah, they're like flies on the wall listening into our conversation. And I just love that! I really love that! It's been a pleasure being here!
22:39: [Dr. G] Well, thank you again for being a guest, Dr. Gibbs and I've loved having you! And yes, I've loved and enjoyed everything that we've brought up in this conversation. And for the listeners out there, I hope you've gained some insights that'll aid you along your journey, whether your journey is in academia or whether it's just in your professional life or your personal life, that hopefully you have some little nuggets and some key takeaways that can aid you along your way. So thank you again, Dr. Gibbs, for being a guest!
23:04: [Dr. Gibbs] Thank you so much for having me!
22:06: Well, that concludes this episode and I hope you have enjoyed part two of this two-part segment of “A conversation with Dr. Michelle Gibbs.” Again, if you have not listened to it already, please be sure to go and check out part one, which is episode 20. And I hope again that you've enjoyed the conversation that I had with Dr. Gibbs, and I hope you were able to take away some key insight that will aid you with navigating along your own journey. Well, I have loved having you tune in to this episode and thank you for being on this journey with me. And if you would love to listen to more Broke PhD Podcast episodes, then please check out the website – brokephdpodcast.com – to continue to follow along. Please remember wherever you are in your own journey, I'm wishing you all the best and remember – YOU GOT THIS! Again, I'm your host, Dr. G, and I hope you have a wonderful day!